Via Slate, an interview on the need for top female athletes – particularly diverse women – to get more media coverage:

Speaker A: You.

Speaker B: This is a word.

Speaker B: A podcast from Slate.

Speaker B: I’m your host, Jason Johnson.

Speaker B: The 2023 FIFA Women’s World Cup in Australia is set to make history as the largest attended women’s sporting event in the world.

Speaker B: But women’s sports specialist and advocate Sabria Whitaker has been saying, it’s women’s sports for me for a long time before this World Cup.

Speaker A: Now people are knowing and they’re learning that it exists, but we have to do something to make it more accessible.

Speaker B: Women’s sports and the efforts to grow the game coming up on A Word with me, Jason Johnson.

Speaker B: Stay with us.

Speaker B: Welcome to A Word, a podcast about race and politics and everything else.

Speaker B: I’m your host, Jason Johnson.

Speaker B: A study by the National Research Group showed that 30% of sports fans in the United States say they’re watching more women’s sports now than they were five years ago.

Speaker B: However, longtime women’s sports fans know that women’s sports historically receive significantly less coverage, on average, than men’s.

Speaker B: But fans say the reason they’re watching more women’s sports now is simple because it’s being broadcast more.

Speaker B: If top tier female athletes are given the visibility they deserve, will that contribute to increasing overall consumption?

Speaker B: And fandom of women’s sports?

Speaker B: Sabria Whitaker has been a vocal advocate for the expansion of women’s sports.

Speaker B: Sabria has a master’s degree in sports administration from Northwestern University.

Speaker B: She’s the founder and executive director of the nonprofit Grow The Game, where her organization works to increase awareness, fan attendance, and engagement for women’s sports.

Speaker B: Sabria is also a frequent contributor to sports commentary and conversations across the web and in person, and she hails from the Chicagoland area.

Speaker B: Sabria Whitaker.

Speaker B: Welcome to a word.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: I love that intro.

Speaker B: So let’s get right to it.

Speaker B: The Women’s World Cup is happening right now in Australia and New Zealand.

Speaker B: The WNBA All Star Game just happened a few weeks ago and was for the first time ever broadcast on ABC during primetime.

Speaker B: And the American Women Under 19 also just won the FIBA U 19 World Cup.

Speaker B: What do all of these things mean for the state of women’s sports in America?

Speaker A: They mean that you can finally share and prove that, you know, what, we’ve known for a long time, which is we are good.

Speaker A: Women’s sports are not just getting good.

Speaker A: We’ve been good.

Speaker A: We’ve been the standard in a lot of these areas.

Speaker A: And I’m just happy that people are finally starting to notice.

Speaker A: So it says, if you don’t know, now you know.

Speaker B: So I want to take a bit of a step back.

Speaker B: You run an organization called Grow The Game that promotes women’s sports in general across the United States and tries to open up doors for more media discussion and coverage of women’s sports.

Speaker B: How’d you start this organization and why?

Speaker A: So it really happened organically in the truest way possible.

Speaker A: It was not that I started the organization to create this mission and work toward the vision.

Speaker A: It was me already doing the work and fulfilling that mission.

Speaker A: And then the organization started.

Speaker A: So I’ve been a WNBA fan for a long time.

Speaker A: In high school, my freshman year, I was doing math studies, projects on awareness about the WNBA and teams, and, like, that’s how serious it was to me.

Speaker A: And so that is something that people have always associated me with.

Speaker A: For a while, I was one of the few people that people knew that was a huge WNBA fan.

Speaker A: And so the more I started talking about it on social media, the more people were saying, you look like you have such a great time.

Speaker A: I always see us sky games and across the country with WNBA games.

Speaker A: I want to go to one, and I’m like, Why aren’t you going?

Speaker A: And so it was like a click.

Speaker A: And I was like, okay.

Speaker A: So now people are knowing, and they’re learning that it exists, but we have to do something to make it more accessible.

Speaker A: And sometimes people just need an invitation.

Speaker A: They just want to know somebody.

Speaker A: And so I’ll just take it upon myself to pick a date, and I’ll host a group, and I ended up having 52 people sign up.

Speaker A: So I said, okay, if people are willing to just see a random person that they may or may not know on Twitter, on Instagram, saying, come to this WNBA game with me, and a lot of them were going for the very first time, I thought, okay, there’s something way bigger to this.

Speaker A: Like, I’m on to something.

Speaker A: I just need to make it more official.

Speaker A: And so that’s exactly what I did.

Speaker A: And I organized working with the Chicago Sky, we organized a community service project.

Speaker A: Wilson sent in some basketballs for giveaways.

Speaker A: D*** Sporting Goods gave some certificates, and this is before it was an actual registered organization.

Speaker A: So at that time, it was just an initiative.

Speaker A: And so to have the buy in from over 100 people, to have people coming out taking notice, big name brands like D*** Sporting Goods and Wilson are buying into it.

Speaker A: I know that they’re serious and that more people are starting to realize that they should be investing in women’s sports.

Speaker A: So that’s how grow the game started.

Speaker B: I was in the Philippines recently, and I was shocked at how much attention was given to women’s basketball there compared to the United States.

Speaker B: But when I think about women’s basketball domestically, right, the WNBA has outlasted two pro football leagues, a soccer league, and it’s lasted longer than the Aba and several other leagues at this point.

Speaker B: But it still doesn’t drive sports conversation like the NFL, the NBA, or even live golf.

Speaker B: Why do you think that is?

Speaker B: Why do you think it’s not driving conversation when it’s been around for over 25 years now?

Speaker A: I think it is not driving mainstream conversation, because the gatekeepers and those in power simply refuse to acknowledge it and don’t want it to.

Speaker A: WNBA Twitter is just one example of the fact that there are conversations happening with spaces.

Speaker A: When I say that someone in the WNBA Twitter community and it doesn’t even have to be a player on the stage but it could just be the fans and it could be at 11:00 a.m.

Speaker A: Anyone’s time and you could get 400 plus people in an impromptu space just to discuss nothing.

Speaker A: And so it’s even bigger than that obviously when you’re using like the WNBA account or a player and it’s scheduled and people have set the reminder but the conversations almost about any and everything are happening.

Speaker A: I think that the media companies or those in power have just been well we’ve done it this way for so long, this way being not prioritizing WNBA coverage and they just are not giving us the space.

Speaker A: If you put it in front of us people will watch.

Speaker A: But there are people who just refuse to acknowledge that the seed has been planted and so they can’t even do the little things to show that the conversation is happening and to get other people involved in the conversation.

Speaker B: We’re going to take a short break.

Speaker B: When we come back more with Sabria Whitaker, founder and executive director of Grow the Game.

Speaker B: This is a word with Jason Johnson.

Speaker B: Stay tuned.

Speaker B: You’re listening to A Word with Jason Johnson.

Speaker B: Today we’re talking about the impact of women’s sports on the world stage with Sabria Whitaker, the founder and executive director of Grow the Game.

Speaker B: One of the sort of unspoken things about women’s basketball is the sort of homophobic stereotype.

Speaker B: For years it was advertisers didn’t want to touch the sport because they’re like oh well it’s too queer for us.

Speaker B: And then now you’ve got since Black Lives Matter and now you’ve got advertisers saying oh they’re too political, they’re too queer.

Speaker B: They’re to this, they’re to this.

Speaker B: Do you think there’s any merit to that sort of skepticism or is it just advertisers and corporations retroactively coming up with excuses because they’re sexist and they don’t want to watch women’s sports anyway?

Speaker A: I think that it’s an excuse, but I also think that they are taking note, maybe, of the attitude of the leagues.

Speaker A: And I say that because there are some teams that simply refuse to acknowledge the fan bases that they actually have.

Speaker A: And I think the league itself promotes a certain kind of queer player.

Speaker A: And I think some brands are guilty of this as well.

Speaker A: Brittany Griner has been a force and a very dominant basketball player since she was in college at Baylor.

Speaker A: Even before then, I wonder how many people knew she was with Nike before the recent controversy with her being held overseas and coming home and then a lot of people leaned into that and welcomed her back.

Speaker A: But before that, who has seen a Britney Griner ad with Nike as dominant as she has been and all the awards.

Speaker A: She’s won the championships.

Speaker A: I didn’t see that before.

Speaker A: I think the league has pushed certain players.

Speaker A: Granted, Diana Tarazi is absolutely a goat when you talk about the WNBA, and Breonna Stewart is also very much a goat when you talk about the WNBA, both of whom are queer players, but they’re not as mass presenting as a Brittany Griner.

Speaker A: And so I think that the league may still be tiptoeing that line of the white male gays and not leaning into the more masculine presenting players.

Speaker A: And as someone who is also a part of the community.

Speaker A: And though I’m not mass presenting, I’m someone who would probably spend money on something related to the mass presenting players as a more fem presenting player.

Speaker A: And so when you continue to do that, you’re missing out on people like me.

Speaker A: And even with the NBA or just wherever we talk, know, the girls coming out to the games or whatever, and that’s where the girls are.

Speaker A: And a lot of people use that as an argument.

Speaker A: Again, the mass presenting players will have girls coming out if you marketed them, if you did more with them, and the same with the advertisers.

Speaker A: There’s no reason why ColourPop did a makeup collaboration with NBA teams.

Speaker A: Do we think that the NBA fans are like, oh, I love the Bulls, and so I’m going to get my girlfriend this Bulls color palette?

Speaker A: Whether or not she likes the Bulls, the WNBA was right there.

Speaker A: A lot of them have the same colors.

Speaker A: And so I think there’s different ways to segment our audience with the WNBA.

Speaker A: It’s so diverse, and you don’t have to ignore your mass presenting players or the appeal that they could give to mass presenting and fem presenting fans.

Speaker B: There’s no debate by ratings, media attention, and it was all over social media.

Speaker B: One of the biggest sporting events of the year in America was the women’s college basketball final between Iowa and LSU.

Speaker B: Like, folks were getting in fights about that final.

Speaker B: There were memes, there were T shirts.

Speaker B: That three rims out.

Speaker B: LSU has it.

Speaker B: Kim Monkey in year two, has orchestrated a turnaround for the ages.

Speaker B: LSU has captured its very first national championship.

Speaker B: Why do you think that broke through this year?

Speaker B: And do you think that momentum will continue into the fall season of women’s college basketball?

Speaker A: I think it was the storytelling, like what we’ve essentially been talking about this entire time of the media coverage that isn’t happening because they were getting coverage and people weren’t waiting until the finals.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker A: You saw the storylines building.

Speaker A: As someone who consults with players, used to manage players, I’m not someone that believes all press is good press.

Speaker A: But I believe that LSU did an amazing job with everything in taking all of the press that they were getting, whether it was from Kim Molke not speaking on Brittany Griner, whether it was Angel Reese who has now won several awards as a breakout athlete of the year.

Speaker A: Because we knew the stories, we knew that people were saying LSU has a cupcake schedule.

Speaker A: I think most people were watching LSU and rooting for them to fail honestly for a long part of the season.

Speaker A: And then you get Caitlin Clark, who is Steph Curry stamped, who gets a lot of comparisons to NBA players for her range from three.

Speaker A: And there started to become a racial element from the South Carolina and Iowa matchup and a lot of people were rooting for Don Staley in South Carolina.

Speaker A: And so when you saw kind of the racial matchup, the same fans who most of the season did not like or were rooting for LSU because just of a lot of things that they had going on, they were like, okay, well, South Carolina’s out, so we’re just going to ignore all of the politics around Kim Moki.

Speaker A: We’re going to rally behind Angel Reese and this very black LSU team and we’re going to watch and see what happens in the finals.

Speaker A: And I think that really was a lot of the attention drawn to that.

Speaker B: Championship game and I think for a lot of people and the comparisons were fair.

Speaker B: What you had Angel Reese, black woman, transferred from Maryland, goes down to LSU, brash, exciting.

Speaker B: And then you have Caitlin Clark, the tall, lanky white girl from Was.

Speaker B: It was very magic and bird and that was a template that America could get behind even in the worst way, right?

Speaker B: I mean, a lot of people showed who they really were and how angry they got about how those championships went.

Speaker B: But that is what drives sports.

Speaker B: There are racial and cultural elements that make sports more interesting.

Speaker B: With that being said, the dominance of white women and the marketing of professional sports has always been a really interesting issue because the faces that we tend to see from the WNBA and from soccer are mostly white.

Speaker B: Regardless of how good these players may happen to be at this point in their careers.

Speaker B: What do you see changing or not changing about that and what do you think the focus on white women athletes and women’s sports has done to the fan base?

Speaker A: I think that it will change and it’s going to start to change once we get to a point where they can no longer deny it, especially with the mass presenting players or the less, I guess, conventionally attractive by European beauty standards.

Speaker A: I think as more people become vocal and comfortable and safe in a community and they start calling it out, I think conversations like these, as long as they keep happening because they are so important, I think we will start to see a shift, hopefully.

Speaker A: But I think right now we’re kind of unfortunately deep in the middle of it just to talk about soccer.

Speaker A: With Megan Rapino, I just saw probably one of the coolest commercials from her and it’s not to take away anything from her talent because her talent is absolutely there.

Speaker A: But just speaking from, let’s say, a WNBA fan side because of her relationship with Suburb, I remember NECCA Agumake made the documentary, I think it’s 144, about the players and looking at it during their season in the bubble, aka the Wobble.

Speaker A: We saw Megan Rapino on there.

Speaker A: She was talking like Megan Rapino was talking.

Speaker A: She had the little thing at the bottom that said who she was.

Speaker A: And it’s like, do you know how many black WNBA players that people have been talking about getting a spotlight and seeing more of?

Speaker A: And you really sat here and centered Megan Rapino, a soccer legend, in a documentary about women’s basketball players because of who she is and her affiliation with suburb.

Speaker A: Unfortunately, that is where we are.

Speaker A: And so I am hoping that people, again, start to talk about it, see what it’s doing, because it’s giving people honestly the wrong impressions about who our goats are in these leagues.

Speaker A: And it’s getting ridiculous.

Speaker A: When I was at the All Star Game, and again, no knock to Bird, she has won a lot of championships.

Speaker A: And I love her commercial.

Speaker A: What is it?

Speaker A: The CarMax commercial with Stephen Curry and how she has way more rings than him.

Speaker A: That is a point we talk a lot about Stephen Curry and not enough about suburb, who is more of a winner than he is as a team level.

Speaker A: But when you look at her resume on an individual level other than All Star appearances and let’s know, games played, all time leader in Seattle Storm history, she does not have the resume of Cheryl Swoops.

Speaker A: And when they were doing the intros in the game, they went and did Simone Augustus and then they got to Cheryl Swoops, read her resume, and then whoever was the announcer said, and we don’t need an introduction to Sue Bird.

Speaker A: And why not after Cheryl Swoops?

Speaker A: Because we would not be talking about the WNBA without someone like the Cheryl Swoops.

Speaker A: And so when you do that and those little things like that, that you think people may not notice, if I’m a newer fan, I’m thinking, oh, well, to say that for, you know, a Cheryl Swoops, she must be amazing to see a Rebecca Lobo be in a Barbie commercial in all these other places she’s been.

Speaker A: She must be one of the greatest of all time.

Speaker A: And then you look and you compare her resume to, like, again.

Speaker A: Cheryl Swoops, candace Parker.

Speaker A: Tina Thompson.

Speaker A: Swing Cash.

Speaker A: Then you’re confused and it’s the media’s fault.

Speaker A: The only way to combat the biases that naturally exist in media in our systems is to talk about them.

Speaker A: Otherwise, you think it’s not even just normal or the standard, but it’s right and it’s not.

Speaker B: We’re going to take a short break.

Speaker B: We come back.

Speaker B: More about the state of women’s professional sports with Sabria Whitaker.

Speaker B: This is a word with Jason Johnson.

Speaker B: Stay tuned.

Speaker B: You’re listening to A Word with Jason Johnson.

Speaker B: Today we’re talking with sports specialists and women’s sports enthusiast Sabria Whitaker about women’s sports and her fight to increase awareness and engagement through her nonprofit organization, Grow the Game.

Speaker B: The American Women’s World Cup soccer team this year is younger and blacker than it ever has been, even though the face of the team is still Megan Rapino, who was a white woman and an icon in both women’s sports and the LGBTQ community.

Speaker B: What’s the next generation look like?

Speaker B: Who are the new heroes?

Speaker B: Who are the people who we’re going to be paying attention to, especially the young black women on the team?

Speaker B: When Megan Rapino finally sort of hangs up her cleats for good?

Speaker A: The new generation, we have already started to see it with Sophia Smith, it looks like Trinity Rodman, Alyssa Thompson.

Speaker A: Like you said, younger players, it’s definitely got a lot more color, a lot know, social media, like, they’re on TikTok all the time.

Speaker A: They’re more outspoken.

Speaker A: They’re so just creative and full of life in a way that I don’t think we’ve seen, because they’re definitely willing to say more, to do more, to be more out there just with social media and just, like, the current landscape, and they’re not holding back on social commentary.

Speaker A: So I think it’s definitely going to be interesting these next ten years to kind of see how they’re kind of growing up in the system and bringing players underneath them.

Speaker A: And, I mean, even if you want to talk about game analysis and the way that they’re playing together, there’s definitely a difference.

Speaker A: Like, you can tell just even by the way they play, social media aside, they’re gaining new fans, and I think the OG fans I feel like I’m an OG fan, and I’ve done a lot of work to stay a fan.

Speaker A: And so now that we’re getting more fans who are a younger, outspoken of color, the OG fans are probably going to have to move over.

Speaker A: I won’t say they have to take a backseat, but they’re going to see some changes, and I just am hoping that everyone can kind of brace themselves for it, but it’s changing, and I love it.

Speaker B: We’re in the midst of sort of the Women’s World Cup, and throughout my lifetime, the sort of prevailing narrative has been american men’s soccer bad, american women’s soccer good.

Speaker B: What are the expectations for the women at the World Cup this year?

Speaker B: And who’s their toughest competition on their way to a potential championship?

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Speaker A: Honestly, we’ve gotten to a point where the expectation is gold.

Speaker A: Like, at this point, wherever we go, it is expected to win.

Speaker A: When I was watching the game against Vietnam, we won, but even the commentators were like, okay, it’s great that we won, but I’m a little disappointed that we only won by three.

Speaker A: Like, it should not have been three to zero.

Speaker A: It should be like ten.

Speaker A: And they were also framing it as the competition now saying, okay, well wait a minute, you’re supposed to be Big Bad USA and you’re only getting three goals.

Speaker A: They felt like maybe it was kind of setting us up to lose.

Speaker A: I guess maybe our mental edge of toughness because the thing is, as great as we have been other countries, they are making tremendous progress as well.

Speaker A: And I don’t think it was necessarily a cakewalk before, but things are getting spicy and things are heating up and as other teams are starting, like I said, other players are getting better.

Speaker A: We have to kind of step our game up as well and not get too complacent in this.

Speaker A: Well, we’ve always been good and kind of what you were just saying, we’re winners but you can lose at any time.

Speaker A: And so I think as far as our toughest competition, I think maybe Sweden, but I mean, it really could be.

Speaker A: And that’s the thing about soccer, it’s just so many people involved, like one goal truly will make or break the game, obviously.

Speaker A: And so I think if it’s just not our night, it’s not our night.

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Speaker A: We’re in a shift of our old and our new players and so they’re trying to figure out how to best use them, how to best use everyone in their individual positions.

Speaker A: But also at the same time I’m a little nervous just from that standpoint, not the players but maybe the coaching and the combinations we’re seeing.

Speaker A: And so I’m really hoping that we don’t go out there and it’s just not our night because it might not be the best outcome for us.

Speaker A: I think we’ve got it together a little bit more to go, but I hope we can really get it together and keep it together and come home with the know.

Speaker B: You’re such a passionate advocate for women’s sports.

Speaker B: Can you just share a little bit about how sports, playing sports has improved your life and what the message is that you want adults and parents out there and kids out there to hear about the value of women’s sports in America?

Speaker A: Playing sports is definitely what made me the competitor that I am today.

Speaker A: It gave me a lot of my resilience that I try to showcase every day.

Speaker A: Definitely taught me a lot about the importance of strategic thinking and teamwork and that helps me in every aspect of life, but especially my career and being a fan and watching sports, just being in this space has given me so many memories that I will take with me forever and share with whoever I can.

Speaker A: But it’s given me some amazing people.

Speaker A: So I would love for more people to have the chance to meet people and build relationships but also just experience the moments that sports give.

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Speaker A: Like I know people want to talk about.

Speaker A: Sports is the one place where it’s not about race, but it is, and it will always be.

Speaker A: But the thing is, we can share in a moment when you root for the same team and something amazing happens and you were there to see it or you saw the replay, and we can just all kind of live in that moment for a second.

Speaker A: And so supporting women’s sports and just really investing, whether it’s your time, telling someone about a game, taking someone to a game, buying tickets to a game, watching whatever it is, whatever you can contribute to grow the game, it’s important, honestly, for humanity.

Speaker A: I know that’s probably dramatic, but in the women’s sports world, you see a lot.

Speaker A: And we didn’t talk about it, but a lot of teams competing in the World Cup right now have not been there before.

Speaker A: And it’s their first time, and some of them had to crowdfund to get there.

Speaker A: I saw the women’s soccer community, honestly and Twitter, raise $15,000 in about 36 hours to send media members and teams to the World Cup.

Speaker A: Okay?

Speaker A: So, yes, I am dramatic.

Speaker A: Yes, my statement was dramatic, but it’s a fact, and I mean that.

Speaker A: So contribute, help, support it, and then come be a part of it and let’s sustain it and so we can have more of that in the world.

Speaker B: Sabria Whitaker is a women’s sports specialist and chief game grower.

Speaker B: As the founder of the nonprofit Growth, the Game.

Speaker B: Sabria, I had so much fun today.

Speaker B: Like, as you can tell, I’m like a real sports fan.

Speaker B: So it was great talking to you.

Speaker B: Thanks for coming to a word.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: I had a great time.

Speaker B: And that’s a word for this week.

Speaker B: The show’s.

Speaker B: Email is a word@slate.com.

Speaker B: This episode was produced by ayanna angel.

Speaker B: Ben Richmond is Slate’s senior director of Podcast operations.

Speaker B: Alicia Montgomery is the vice president of Slate Audio.

Speaker B: Our theme music was produced by Don Will.

Speaker B: I’m Jason Johnson.

Speaker B: Tune in next week for a word.